Posts by Cold Steel

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

David_Jay » I'm not here to make any Jews out of anyone or to recommend religion itself to anyone. Consult MyJewishLearning.com if you want to know more about Judaism.

But Judaism isn't one cohesive movement. Some Jews deeply believe their religion, while others view the stories of their past as fairy tales and little more. As with any religion, some will take the writings literally, others will view them as valuable but corrupted, and still others will put them on onion skin pages and protect them with fine leather bindings and scatter them with notations.

Judaism is a revealed religion. It's also a culture, a way of life, a collection of traditions. It doesn't matter whether Abraham and Moses were real, but each laid a foundation that make Jews what they are today. I don't think I'll ever understand your concept of God. I think of Him as a perfect being in our physical image, all knowing, all powerful. In Christianity, Jesus is in the "express image" of the Father. Adam was in the image of God, and Seth was in the image of Adam. And though God is all powerful, one wonders why it took him six-plus days to create the earth when he could have just spoken it into existence with a word?

I'm also not entirely sure how many Jews look at the supplemental prophets like Elijah and that prophet's return. In that culture, why does Elijah need to return?

You were once a Jehovah's Witness and left it, and have since studied Judaism and reside in Israel. It's obvious that to you God is real. At the same time, your understanding of God defies understanding (at least on my level). When the Christian Patristic scholars wrote of God as being everywhere and nowhere, infinitely large and yet incomprehensibly small: completely beyond human understanding. And yet after creating us, "He" offers us nothing except His notice.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

I recommend reading all these threads in context. Decide for yourself if I've been out of line considering the topics. David, you seem to put a great deal of stock in being an Israeli Jew (rather than an American Jew). I respect that because your background and education is so defined, but what's the difference in your touting your religious background and me mine?

The topic you use against me was "Do Religious People Fear Their Religion May Be Wrong?" and I saw nothing saying "except Mormons." I thought this was a forum for the exchange of religious views and thought. I have nothing against your constantly reminding people you're a Jew...in fact, it's appropriate and affords us an appreciation of your background. But you seem to have something personal against Latter-day Saints, and it seems to stem back to the baptism thing (which I have no control over). When people ask me about the Book of Mormon or make lame comments about there being zero evidence for it, of course I'm going to defend it. Rather than being some mindless cult, I consider Mormonism to be as significant a religious movement as Islam.

Lately I've been studying the Seventh Day Adventists and Ellen G. White. I've read her revelations and visions and have been listening to their YouTube videos. And I've compared them to Joseph Smith's writings, and in my view there's no contest. But it's one thing to read these things, and quite another to declare them "laughable" without reading them. People are entitled to their opinions, though.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

Saved_JW » God is the only eternal uncreated being in the universe.

This is the contention of many evangelicals, but how do we know this? In the book of Genesis, we find Gods (Eloheim) speaking to each other. "Let US create man in OUR image, after OUR likeness" and "man has become as one of US." When we use the generic term man, we don't mean just one man: it's inclusive of all men and women.

If Jesus is God (Jehovah), the Son of the Father, and if the Holy Spirit also is God, we have at least three Eloheim as the presiding council of this earth. The scriptures tell us that God is ONE, but the New Testament is fairly clear that this oneness is not literal. Jesus prayed to the Father concerning the Twelve, "...that they may be one, even as we are one." The oneness of the Twelve is directly correlated with the oneness of God. This is one reason that Christianity is criticized by both the Jews and the Muslims. One wonders, for example, that if Jesus was, and is, God, who waa hearing and answering prayers during Jesus' mortality, when he was a child, a man? And who heard Jesus' prayers when he prayed to the Father? The oneness in Christianity was a oneness of purpose, not a literal oneness as some of the Patristic fathers tried desperately to argue. They want the Trinity to be both literal and figurative.

It just doesn't fit.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

David_Jay » God is not merely intelligence either. Our God is far greater than just that. Since Abraham was the one who among his contemporaries who embraced this fact, God chose his descendents to carry on this understanding. This concept is what Jewish theology calls "monotheism": no God but one, no god but God.

Okay...but in all the books of Moses and in all the books of the prophets, the word "GOD" is used. If you believe the Jews borrowed the god language from their Mesopotamian neighbors, that may be true, but how do you -- David Jay -- know that this is how Abraham and Moses comprehended Him? Abraham and Lot both knew many of the heathen and Moses was raised an Egyptian. Moses beholds the burning bush and we're left to wonder what this Entity was and why it was drawn towards Israel?

Many of the Patristic-era fathers left descriptions of this Entity (called "God" for lack of a better term) very similar to how you're describing Him. Such a Being can't really be in the same image as man, nor even really be referred to as a "He" properly since He has no peers nor a mate. In short, He is self-existent and has an intelligence that transcends the Universe. If so, can we be sure He can even be described as El or Eloheim?

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

David_Jay » Judaism is not a religion of belief or faith. It is one of action, where people cooperate with God to bring practical healing and help into the world. Technically speaking, Jews don't "believe" in God. None of us have this "belief." But that doesn't mean that Jews don't accept God as real.

So when Moses communes with YHWH on the mountain, and when he receives his commission from the voice from the burning bush, what was he dealing with, if anything? If YHWH is real, but not "God," what is He? Is He intelligence? Or is He the sum of stories created around countless fires on dark desert night?

But in what sense is God real? If He is an intelligence and is not a GOD, what is He and why did He take an interest in the Jews?

We are not focused on an afterlife as we have the miracles of a present life. Every breath we have now is a gift. Every moment of life is a miracle. Every second is this life is a second experiencing God who Jews accept as real as the world they live in. We have no need for belief or faith as we are already with God now.

This is fine if you enjoy life and are living it fully. But not everyone views life as a blessing. Some view it as a curse. Some live every day in pain, others battle Alzheimers and see their minds slipping irretrievably away. To them, life is no miracle or blessing. Of what use is God if He doesn't speak? And what good is living the law if it leads nowhere but old age and death?

In other words, many atheists would contend that YHWH is, and has never been, real in any sense of the word. A covenant requires two parties, no? Judaism requires God to be complete.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

How do you explain to an honest hearted person why God acted the way they did?
The Old Testament and New Testament are almost polar opposites.

What particular way did God act that you find questionable or objectionable? Try to be specific because the Bible is full of stories. Also, in which ways are the Old and New Testaments "polar opposites"?

David_Jay » Jews find atheism a very good and intellectual life choice. Even many practicing Jews are atheist.

Yes, and I've never understood it. I had a Jewish friend who believed the entire story of Moses was a collection of fairy tales, yet he drove sixty-five miles to go to a kosher restaurant on travel. He lived it at home, too. And also, the law that Moses received and the works of other Jewish scholars and theologians are some of the most moral and sensible writings ever written. Compared with the surrounding cultures and religious beliefs, Jewish law stood head and shoulders above them. The Greeks can boast of their great philosophers (and I'm a huge fan of the Greeks), but they had nothing on scholars like Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (Maimonides). His works were so thorough and garnered such great respect that there's a saying which goes, "From Moses to Moses, there's no one like Moses!"

The judicial code, the treatment of animals and the wisdom and compassion of the law belies the idea that it was just the manmade ramblings of shepherds and Bedouins. And though atheism may be "a very good and intellectual life choice" may be true for some, the debate on that will continue to rage. I would be more inclined to agnosticism that the absolutism of atheism. To say, I don't know makes more sense to me if someone were to just drop me on this planet and have me choose a belief system.

Jews can be as diverse as anyone else, but I never understood why my friend would live kosher and eat kosher if he was an atheist. Yet he did. He said it was a cultural thing.

What good is any religion if it doesn't address the afterlife or the judgment of man?

I believe there's great wisdom in the so-called Old Testament.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

I have not recommended that you or anyone else read the Book of Mormon, nor have I done the things you accuse me of. It's blatantly unfair to come here with a chip on your shoulder, to a discussion board, then assert that anything contrary to your beliefs is an affront to not only you, but all Jews.

When have I ever cited any LDS text or Scripture except to clarify questions or comments addressed to me requiring clarification. You act as though Christians are your enemy and we are not. If you raise the issue of baptism for the dead, how can I answer or clarify our position without citing our scripture or writings? Do you think we mean to insult your relatives, David? Or you? Are you so narrow minded of the beliefs of others that you can't hear or try to understand them? Who's being arrogant?

Like it or not, I have put forth our beliefs. Yes, you may think Joseph Smith and Jesus made up these bizarre religions and that we've got it all wrong, but we respectfully disagree. Moses had his revelations in the deserts of the Sinai. Jesus had his in Jerusalem, and Joseph Smith in New York. But do you think WE made up our beliefs, and said, hey, let's go yank the chains of the Israeli Jews? We do many thousands of baptisms, and while you may find it reprehensible that we baptize anyone's relatives, that's just not the way we see it.

If you don't want me to defend my beliefs, don't make them an issue. I'm not here to discuss Mormonism...we have our own sites for that and you can go there and pound on us if you like.

I suggest you go back and reread this thread to find out how this whole thing developed before making your accusations. We LDS mean no offense to anyone, and we don't do what we do out of spite or malice. To take it as such is a mistake on your part.

15

This really does not end well for God.

by pleaseresearch in

to say this whole creation thing has been or will be a success at the end is absurd.

not only did one third of the angels jump ship to satans side.

but adam and eve screwed up so quickly.

Cold Steel

EverApostate » Why should there be a war in heaven, as the Bible says? War is possible only with materialistic and tangible living things. God and his angelic myriads are spirit creatures and how do you think a war is practical in this respect. Can't god inactivate the rebelling angels in a split second, stripping them off their power.

Most likely it was a war of words, not done with swords. God respects our free agency. As Father Kallistos Ware notes: "The source of evil lies thus in the free will of spiritual beings endowed with moral choice, who use that power of choice incorrectly." (The Orthodox Way, p. 75)

Before the creation of the world, one third of the hosts of heaven rebelled. Their defeat was certain, but the Adversary was willing to sacrifice his all to make a point. We don't know what the debate was over or what would have happened if Satan had won the majority; we just know he was doomed to defeat.

Ware also noted: "There has been a double fall; first of all the angels, and then of man." But what if we were those angels? What if those born into mortality were the two-thirds who were loyal, while the one-third who were rebellious were cast down to Earth to lead us astray?

"Prior to man's creation," Ware notes, "there had already occurred a parting of the ways within the noetic realm: some of the angels remained steadfast in obedience to God, others rejected him. Concerning this 'war in heaven,' (Rev. 12:7) we have only cryptic references in Scripture; we are not told in detail what happened, still less do we know what God has for a possible reconciliation within the noetic realm...." He even wonders if God will ever reconcile with Lucifer and his angels.

That I doubt.

The point is, we don't know enough to gauge the situation. We can only guess. The details must remain until later. After the resurrection, there will be no more war or dissension.

David Jay » The so-called Fall of Man, the War in Heaven, even "Satan the Devil" are all Christian inventions that, for lack of a better term, screws up the meaning behind the Jewish Scriptures.

Or they could be the results of further revelation. I understand why you would be skeptical, but in the end you may see it differently. Only time will tell. Christian and Jewish scholars have been battling for eons over this and the verdict is not in.

Your view that Jesus is God also remains to be seen. If we Christians are wrong, we're wrong. If you're wrong, then I suspect you would be equally willing to change. Jesus certainly enraged the Jews of his time with his claims of a divine nature.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:37

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:31-35

38

Talk to my Dad about beards.

by LovingLifeNow in

jw
friends

so i spoke to my elder dad the other day, and he asked if i still am sporting a beard.

i said yes, then i said, "i thought the society said its ok to have a neat trimmed beard now?

" he said "no, no, no..if you read the article , it says in countries where it is accepted" so my response was "ummm, its pretty accepted here in america"..which he says "it reflects your spirituality" "if another wittness saw you, they would know you are weak"...i was like, "ok, i don't get it, and i follow christ/god, not men..." then he said in his hall" if a brother came in with a beard , he would not have privelages" then i just gave up, and tried to change the subject..ugggggggggg if these people would just listen to themselves , they would see the sillyness of there teachings...

Cold Steel

StuckInARut2 » Great video. I've watched the video twice and wondered, if people shaved to keep even one person from stumbling, what if telling people to shave causes people to stumble?

Also, in the August 15 Watchtower 1954, where Jesus is clean shaven on the torture stake, behold, not only was Jesus clean shaven, check out the other guys. The one destined for Paradise, pictured on Jesus' right, also was beardless while the other criminal, the one who mocked, wore a beard.

The evil criminal also had body hair, and Jesus shaved under his arms.

It makes me wonder what would happen if people just began ignoring the policy (maybe after watching this video). What would they do? What could they do? Revoke privileges?

Imagine a policy based on one organizational leader trying to discredit his predecessor. It's almost Marxist in its simplicity! Was it accompanied by banning Russell's writings? Why not just eliminate people with beards?

15

This really does not end well for God.

by pleaseresearch in

to say this whole creation thing has been or will be a success at the end is absurd.

not only did one third of the angels jump ship to satans side.

but adam and eve screwed up so quickly.

Cold Steel

Pleaseresearch » To say this whole creation thing has been or will be a success at the end is absurd. Not only did one third of the angels jump ship to Satans side. But Adam and Eve screwed up so quickly. Even before Adam and Eve sinned. Satan had turned on God. So it's really not gone well for him so far.

Christianity and atheism can't be settled by mere sophistry of this kind. You have no idea of what lay behind the war in heaven, as it's called. You also have little understanding of the fall of man and if Adam and Eve "screwed up" as you say. How do you know they screwed up? Given that God is all powerful and all knowing, it's difficult to believe that He would put Adam and Eve in a garden under the restrictions He gave them and not know in advance that they would fall.

How do you know He did not intend for man to fall?

Did God fully intend for man to remain in an ignorant state forever? Because of your religious background that's all you've been taught. But if the Redemption, or Atonement, of mankind enabled Adam and Eve and their descendants to become like God -- that is to have an immortal glorified body of flesh and bone and to be "like God" (see 1 John 3;2) -- then only by falling, becoming mortal and being redeemed could they complete the process. Thus, Satan's plan fails and God's plan succeeds.

This has been debated since St. Augustine and in far more detail. As Father Kallistos Ware notes in The Orthodox Way, "The source of evil lies thus in the free will of spiritual beings endowed with moral choice, who use that power of choice incorrectly." God could not make the choice of man's fall for him. He had to put him in a position where it was man's choice. Not evil, for the scripture states: "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever...[God] placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

How could man be evil if he had not that knowledge? And also, why would God keep man away from the tree of life, which would have given him immortality? The only logical conclusion is that man would have been trapped in an imperfect, immortal body for eternity with no possibility of growth.

"The effects of man's fall were both physical and moral," Ware notes. ...For death is not the end of life, but the beginning of its renewal." I believe he summed it up well when he wrote: "The Incarnation, then, is not simply a way of undoing the effects of [the fall], but it is an essential stage upon man's journey from the divine image to the divine likeness." In other words, we were created in the image of man, but we required the fall and the atonement to acquire God's likeness. It was God's plan all along, and Satan and his angels opposed it.

If one reads and understands the scriptures, God is always one step ahead of Satan and has provided man with limitless potential. Scoff at the creation if you will, but you've missed the heart of what's in the scriptures.